Gunnar Energy Services

Welcome to the official Erdos Miller podcast where we spend our non-productive time talking about drilling tech and getting the latest insight from industry leaders on our show. David is on vacation today with his beautiful family somewhere else, so just going to be me and our guest today. And our guest is a really fantastic, interesting, and talented individual that I'm really excited to interview and talk with today, Mr. Clinton Moss. He's the CEO of Gunnar Energy Services. Clinton, go ahead and say hi.

Hello folks. Ken, I really appreciate you guys having me on and I'm looking forward to the discussion. I like these free flowing discussions, no scripts. Let's just figure out some interesting things to talk about and see where it goes.

Yeah. Yeah. And we're on camera. Don't forget, on camera and recorded. So any who, so I'm an entrepreneur, you're an entrepreneur. That's a very difficult and hard road but it's a very worthwhile one and I definitely would encourage anyone who's considering going down that path to do so. Tell me a little bit about your path. Gunnar, as far as I understand it, is your second company you founded or is there more?

No, no, no. We have to rewind. Let's go back. Let's go back to how does someone get involved with starting their own business? Well, for starters, my parents worked full-time, Monday to Friday, nine to five, and at 5:00 PM they would stop their day job and they would start their entrepreneurial activities. So I saw my parents do this my entire life ever since I was a little boy until I left to go to university. They always encouraged this and they always encouraged entrepreneurial spirit with me as well. Now they knew it needed to be underpinned by education, by experience with various companies, et cetera. Or that's one way, and they encouraged all that. But way back when I was just 12 years old, I played bagpipes. A lot of people don't know I played bagpipes. I would go on the street and play bagpipes for money, a busker.

Yeah, no, wait, wait. Then I had to pay my way through university, I had a mobile french fry truck and I would peel these potatoes and sell the potatoes, sell the french fries. I did whatever it takes. And where I grew up in Newfoundland, there's not a lot of good paying jobs, so I tried to make my own job. And that's how I went about doing this. So Marksman Ranging, which was the first oil field company that I started, and Gunner, the second oil field company that I started, this is further down the chain of entrepreneurial pursuits.

Wow. So let me just make sure I get this right. Was it straight from the french fry truck to Marksman Ranging or were there other little ventures in between?

No. So it from the french fry truck to Marksman Ranging. So the last business that I had when I was a teenager or early adulthood was messing around with this stuff while I was going to university. And once I was done with university, I was employed immediately by Halliburton right out of school. And I stayed with Halliburton for oh, I think eight years or so. And then I moved on to other organizations and eventually my own business. Yeah. I would literally peel potatoes, cut up, sell the french fries. And I remember on one particular occasion, I had my bagpipes and stuff like that in the french fry truck because I had to also do another engagement. I was actually playing at a funeral, which I'd be paid for. So I'd put my kilt on, go play the bagpipes, run back to the french fry truck.

You're just making this up. You're just messing with me.

Nope.

Okay.

No, I'm not.

All right.

It's like your brain cycles running through an entrepreneurial activity all the time and testing this, the thought experiment. At every waking moment, almost, of the day when I'm not dedicating, focusing time on my family, which is very important. All other times is focused on this activity. And when you have that firmware running on your brain, some amazing things can happen. I'm not saying in my particular case, but I'm trying. But certainly, it permeates everything that we do. People that are entrepreneurs, it's almost like you're wired for it. Not for everyone, but I feel as if I am.

Yeah. I say it's a good sign that if you can't stop thinking about a business or technical problem in the shower, you might be a good candidate for being an entrepreneur. And it's funny because I actually had the same observation about myself a couple of days ago, which was I'm either in family mode and I'm spending time with my wife and my kids or I am back in problem solving mode and the brain's going 24/7. Even if I'm doing a honey do task and hanging some shelves or something, I'm thinking about work or a technical problem or solving a problem with a client or whatever else while all that's going on. It's just absolutely non-stop. I would be really embarrassed to see the statistic because the number of hours that I have thought about drilling tools while taking a shower is probably a pretty astounding number.

I bet.

So you did eight years with Halliburton out of school. What inspired you to get out on your own and form Marksman?

Yeah, okay. So I was with Halliburton and I just learned a tremendous amount there. And really the impetus for forming my own business came when Halliburton acquired a bunch of technology from Vector Magnetics. That group is a fantastic group. By my estimation, by my judgment, they are the original inventors of magnetic ranging, certainly of active magnetic ranging. So I was able to interact with that group. And what I learned, the lesson that I learned was something that was incredibly complex, or at least at that point, it seemed like it to me. Incredibly complex, this concept of magnetic ranging. You can break it down into bite-sized pieces and you say, "Okay well, what do you need to be able to tackle the development of magnetic ranging tools, for example." Well, you look around the place and they had a physicist and electrical engineers and mechanical guys.

I said, "Okay, well I can see how it's done. It is possible. It is not something that is beyond my ability to understand or comprehend." So when I decided to go out on my own, well, you know what you need to do. You need to put together a team, people smarter than yourself, smarter than myself. I just amalgamated. This amazing talent and work product is not necessarily mine. I guess my work product is piecing this all together, but it's not necessarily individual components of the technology.

I'd say if the majority of people at Erdos Miller were not smarter than me, we'd be in trouble.

You surround yourself. Look, it's cliche I guess at this point. Some much greater minds than mine have said this. And I'm borrowing loosely from what they said. But you surround yourself by incredibly talented people. And if you're not learning something from them every day, you're hanging out with the wrong bunch of guys and gals. If I don't learn something every day from my team around me, I've got the wrong team. This is the position I find myself in. What an amazing job, if you will, to be able to get up every day and spend time with brilliant people and collectively generate, produce new things, and to learn and be very happy and content while you're doing it. I can't imagine a better vocation.

I have a big software background and don't get me wrong, I love software and the web and iPhone apps and all this kind of stuff. But when you move into the realm of hardware, that's one of the things that gets me most excited is just you go beyond just one discipline, which may be software or IT, into needing the electrical expertise and the physics expertise and math and firmware and AI and ML and everything else and mechanical engineers. And it's so rewarding to work with all those different disciplines and see the perspectives and then work together to build something physical that actually goes out in the world and does something. I could never be an entrepreneur, personally, that's just going for the next app. I want to build the iPhone and the app. That's just who I am. But okay, so you got inspired by talking to Vector. You met those guys. I guess, well how did you make that leap? So they're talented. How do you decide okay, they're talented, but I want to start my own company?

Okay. So I'm working at Vector or with Vector, but I'm a Halliburton employee. And of course, I'm involved in this well control stuff because some of the technology that's used in magnetic ranging, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit later, but what really drove the development was the requirement to more effectively manage the drilling of a relief well. And we can talk about that in a little bit. But basically my work at Halliburton and interaction with Vector brought me around these relief well applications. And inevitably when you do this, you deal with well control groups. And these are the ladies and gentlemen that deal with the expression of hydrocarbons on surface and attempt to cap those wells or whatever the case may be. So I was doing a bunch of jobs and started working with Wild Well very closely. And a gentlemen over there at Wild Well Control approached me and said, "Would you be interested in being well control guy?"

And of course, that's very exciting for a younger guy. I thought that was great. So I did that. I took that leap and went to to Wild Well Control. And that gentleman who hired me at Wild Well is now my business partner, Dan Eby. Anyways, so I'm at Wild Well and we're planning relief wells or participating in relief wells, et cetera. And there is only one provider of the technology that is used. So something like 95% of relief wells have been drilled or have employed active magnetic ranging technology. The only provider at that point in time, when we're looking back now 2010, between 2010 and 2012, was Halliburton, was Vector but now the technology was acquired by Halliburton. And I thought, "Well, this is the entrepreneurial spirit now. What, monopoly? That can't be. There's only one group that can do this?"

They could do it exceptionally well, but we need a competitive force. We need to stress Halliburton with a competitor so that they get better, the competitor gets better, the customer is better served and all stakeholders. Because you're talking about relief wells, so all stakeholders. The population, governmental bodies, the environment, all better served. So of course, this is Adam Smith's invisible hand, isn't it? That's the way that this is meant to work. So I saw opportunity. There's a monopoly, there are no competitors, and I started my own company to address that.

Right. And so that's a really key part is being able to see an opportunity, see an opening, and then just work up the courage to go for it. And it's interesting what you say about making the existing incumbent better by having a new competitor.

Oh yeah, everyone has to step up their game.

Yeah. Well, yeah. And I totally agree. A lot of times, having a competitor is stressful and I'm sure a lot of people would be like, "Man, it would just be great if I had no competitors and I just owned the market and blah, blah, blah, blah." But I think the market is always ultimately underserved when that happens. And we have competitors here in the MWD space and there's one or two in particular that we really respect and enjoy having in the market with us because I think it makes both of us better. When you have two or three really smart groups all competing and innovating and going, "Whoa, holy crap, [inaudible 00:12:52] a new way to do this," I think it's just so much more when you have that type of competition. Now maybe if you had a monopoly, you could get that by having competing teams internally, but that's just an entirely different conversation.

Right. Just let me put some detail to that, how I approach a competitive force. So like we were talking off camera, Ken, in business, it's up and down, there's an ebb and flow. Every day, you're not going to win, but you come back fighting harder the next day. About a month ago, or no, three months ago now. I just want to give a little story. Three months ago, I was set back, something didn't go my way. I forget what it is now. It doesn't matter. And you're driving home and I'm driving home and I'm stuck in traffic. And I say, "What are you going to do? Are you going to feel sorry for yourself? Or are you going to fight back and do better?" So I say, "Well, what is something that I can do that no one can prevent me from doing? They can't out-market me. They can't somehow push me aside. I can invent. No one can stop my mind."

So on the way home, I thought, "Okay, I'm going to invent something right now." And I go through this process, I get back to my computer, I flush it out, I submit a patent. And I'll be talking about that, coincidentally, that particular patent today at the Geothermal Resources Council convention. So this is what you do. You never, ever, ever give up. As soon as you're setback, you just find another way to add value, to create, to advance your position. You just find another way. And then, slowly but surely you proceed with growing confidence. This is how it's done. We never give up. You never back down.

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And I've had some, personally, really dark days as an entrepreneur and to the point where I felt quitting, I felt like giving up. And especially when you try, when you're in that dark spot, and you try and look three or six months or a year down the line, just from where you're at, what you want to get back to or grow into just seems impossible. But I would just say that the way that I got out of that state and got things moving again was just starting, at least for a short period of time, taking things just an hour at a time, day at a time, and just resolving to keep going and just not worrying about, "Okay, what does three months look like? Let's just get through today, let's get through tomorrow, let's get through Friday." And then just keep going. So Marksman, you started that. You were inspired. You wanted to add competition to the market. So Marksman's not independent anymore. So tell me a little bit about how that all worked out and where that company is now.

Yeah. So I started that group with three or two other gentlemen, Troy Martin, and Shaun St. Louis. And we're all ex-Halliburton guys and buddies working in the field. All expert field operators, but none of us had done development before, but we knew what the product needed to be. So we started Marksman, we developed this technology, we funded it all ourselves, and we were successful. We ran the tools in the hole and it checked out. And very shortly after we had some success with field trials with our systems, Scientific Drilling International became interested. And we were able to then reach a deal with Scientific Drilling for them to acquire the Marksman entity and all of Marksman's technology.

So how long-

So Scientific Drilling now... What's that?

How long was Marksman around?

I think we started Marksman in 2014 and sold it in 2015.

Okay. So that's impressive. That's a very quick turnaround.

Yeah. I think from the time that we started development to tools in the hole and proven up was less than a year.

Nice. That's a good timeline. That's impressive.

Yeah. It's quick. It is quick. But the particular system, the particular type of ranging that we were pursuing lent itself to that. There are more complex systems that one could design. And I'll say that we started initially development on a system that, like I say, is favorable for compressing timelines. You're not always going to do that, but it was fortuitous.

It sounds like you're apologizing a little bit, but it also sounds like that's a good example of keeping it simple, stupid. Right?

Yeah. The bottom line though is the tool went in the hole and it worked. And then the particular tool was for drilling steam-assisted gravity drainage wells, keeping two parallel wells separated at some precise distance over the extent of their lateral. So the bottom line is we ran the tool in the hole and it worked. So I guess easy or not, or whatever the case may be, it produced a useful result.

I'm a hundred percent sure it wasn't easy. So okay, so you guys got bought by SDI. I assume you worked for them for a few years.

Yeah, so look, magnetic ranging technology is complex. It will never, I shouldn't say never, that's a strong word. But it should be thought of generally as an expert user system. There is a lot of nuance to the interpretation of the data. Interpretation of the data is key. Okay, why am I saying all that? Because you can't just sell technology to a group and say, "Oh, here's the manual. Go have fun." That's not going to work, not for this particular type of technology, the physics of the measurement, et cetera. So rightfully, naturally, I worked with Scientific Drilling for approximately five years. And that was so we could transfer a lot of the knowledge about how the systems worked and pursue the market together, obviously with the person who designed the system or led the design and introduction of the system into the market. So yeah, I was there for a number of years doing that, enjoyed my time there, but now moved on to other things.

Cool. And so now Gunnar is your new venture, right?

Yeah. Correct. So as soon as I was done working with Scientific Drilling amicably, I wish them all the best, but the minute that I could go back to some, I guess, vocational pursuit, I elected entrepreneurial path again and decided to form a new business. That's Gunnar Energy Services, yes sir.

Once you get a taste for entrepreneurship, it's hard to ever imagine not doing it or letting go. It's quite addictive. So tell me about the name. What does Gunnar mean? Because I expected you to spell that G-U-N-N-E-R and not G-U-N-N-A-R.

So okay, you're looking for names and I'm looking for something that is aspirational, obviously means something to me personally. Marksman invokes the concept of precision and hitting the bullseye. Imagine an Olympic athlete, she's going to shoot and hit the bullseye in one of these decathlons or something like that I guess. I'm not sure of the technical name. But okay, so that's why we said Marksman. So I was like, "Well, what's another?" I'm doing the same thing. It's about accuracy, pinpoint hitting something. Well, what about a gunner, a tail gunner on the end of a bomber? That came to my mind. But then I guess something that hit home personally for me was the fact that my uncle, who I admired, his name was Gunnar, G-U-N-N-A-R, Gunnar Laurell. And he was a pilot. He was Swedish. He was a pilot in the Second World War and ended up in Canada flying bush planes after the war, delivering medicine to remote communities.

He's been in some very precarious situations, crashed in his plane and survived nine days in the Arctic, rationing portions of candy bar and draining the fuel from his plane, building an igloo, and then surviving inside the igloo for nine days burning this fuel so he could stay warm. This guy was tough and a resilient character. But if you talk to him, he was the nicest guy that you could ever talk to. But just tough as the hobs of hell, as we say it back home in Newfoundland. So I admired his grit and determination. There's a play on the Marksman, the Gunnar thing. And I elected to call it Gunnar. Now of course, you can see the colors, blue and yellow. There's a Swedish thing there, a throwback. And we pronounce it Gunnar because Newfoundlanders, that's how they pronounced his name, Gunnar. No Newfoundlander or very few are going to take the time to say the Gunnar, drag the A on the end of it there. So yeah, that's where it came from.

I'm pretty embarrassed to say that I still cannot pronounce Erdos correctly. The American pronunciation is Erdos Miller or whatever, but I'd have to get David or Abe on to say it in the Hungarian pronunciation.

Yeah, there you go.

But it's awesome that you're honoring your history and your family with that. I talked to the guys, Mr. Terry Frith at Gordon Technologies. And Gordon is also a family name that they're honoring there with their company's name. So that's awesome to see people doing that in the industry. So let's shift a bit and talk about technology. So what the hell is magnetic ranging? What a weird word. Tell me about that. Tell me about, I heard relief wells. What is all this stuff?

Okay, so let's break it down. First thing is, as you well know, Ken, if we're going to drill a well underneath the surface of the earth, any type well, any orientation, we're determining its downhole position relative to back to the surface intersection point, or surface spot point rather. And we do that by basically integrating through a series of measurements that we have. We have a measured depth, inclination, and an azimuth, so a tilt, and a direction, and the depth of the how much drill pipe we have in the hole. And each one of those-

And this is a form of dead reckoning navigation. Right?

Yeah. Each one of those inputs, measured depth, inc, az, has errors associated with them, small, albeit small, but they're cumulative. Every time you take a new measurement, you add up these errors. And if you drill a very long well, for example, you'll have huge errors. So the downhole positional certainty is such that you could think that you're in some certain orientation in space, northing, easting, and depth, but actually you could be misplaced from that expected position by tens or hundreds of feet. So depending, well, I would say tens of feet, or it can get up to 100 feet or more.

And we have to do this because the GPS electromagnetic waves coming from space don't penetrate the ground. Otherwise, you'd be using those.

Otherwise, we'd be. Yeah, why can't you just use GPS? I wish we could. Okay. So they can't find the satellites. So okay. So we have these errors. Now, in most cases, these errors are tolerable, they're insignificant. From a 10,000 foot view, it's not of any concern. But there are some applications that would call for precision. And there are some enhanced production techniques that call for enhancements in precision. And that is generally addressed by magnetic ranging. So what are we doing with magnetic ranging? We're trying to determine the distance and direction from a downhole position to another downhole position relative to each other. I don't care about anything that happened before, generally. I want to say where am I relative to some other point in space right now?

You got an arrow and a target, right?

Yeah. It's a vector. Yeah. That's all it is. So we've got a distance and direction to the target that we determined with these magnetic means. Now, what do we generally do? We either stay some certain distance away from a target, we intentionally avoid the target and we don't want to hit it, or we want to hit it, one of the three. And that's generally where magnetic ranging is employed. You want to hit something, you want to avoid something, or you want it to stay some precise distance away.

So staying away from something or saying a precise difference, that sounds like something you do as a normal or planned course. Hitting something sounds like something you do when something goes wrong.

Actually, it's both. So let me give you some examples. Let's say we want to stay away from something at some precise distance. Here's a couple of quick ones. We do not want to violate some type of separation, because let's say you have a well that's producing, you drill another one, you don't want to get too close. There's anti-collision and separation rules that these companies have to avoid a catastrophic situation like a blowout. So we'll want to stay a minimum of, let's say, 50 feet away from something before we diverge to make sure we don't create an issue. Enhanced recovery, steam-assisted gravity drainage, they figured out if we place two wells approximately 20 feet apart and have those laterals perfectly 20 feet apart over some extended distance, we can produce this heavy oil in a creative interesting way. So that requires exact spacing.

Now, what about when you want to intentionally hit something? A lot of times because you have a problem, like you said, if you have a well that's blowing out, one of the ways that we can address that is to drill another well, intersect the first. It's often called a relief well, but these days we're not relieving any pressure. We're actually applying pressure. So that's a situation where you want to intersect something because of an emergency. But here's another interesting reason we might want to intersect. I'm talking about it this afternoon at the Geothermal Resources Council. What if we want to drill closed loop geothermal systems? So we want to drill two wells that intersect, and then we're going to form a closed loop, like a heat pump but very deep underneath the ground. Well, now we're intentionally lining up to intersect two wells and that's preplanned.

That's fantastic. So how does this actually work? How do you stay 50 feet apart from something? How do you do it?

I'll tell you exactly how it works. So magnetic ranging generally, it's boiled down to two parts. We need to emit or create a magnetic signal or otherwise determine some signal we're going to sample, and we need to receive it. So emit, receive. Generally speaking, we receive the signals with magnetometer package. And it can be deployed via wireline or embedded in the MWD. And then there are myriad ways that we can create a signal. We can inject current. We can put rare earth magnets in the bottom hole assembly that generates signal. We can deploy in wellbores electromagnets that create signal. And the key here is most of the source of the signal, we understand the three-dimensional field that they will create. So we have a model for the field that whatever source of signal will generate. Well, then now when we sample it, we can make meaningful interpretation of the data and determine the distance and direction. So magnetic ranging, boiling it down to the simplest parts. How do you do it? We emit a magnetic field other than the Earth's field. We don't care about that anymore. We receive it, analyze, action.

And that's how I was going to basically boil it down, is most of the time, we're drilling with a magnetometer, we're drilling in reference to the Earth's field where the Magnetic North Pole of the Earth is. In this case, we're creating an artificial North Pole almost and drilling in reference to that. Right?

Absolutely. It could be thought of that way.

Okay, awesome. So why do I have to do this by creating an artificial or sensing an existing magnetic field? Why do I have to create that artificial North Pole? Why couldn't I just make a gyro that's hyper, hyper accurate and just know that these two wells are 20 feet apart.

Okay. You could, that is possible, but that requires incredible amount of foresight and that super-duper gyro you're talking about. And still, no matter how good the technology is, there are some errors. Now imagine, everyone knows about the big blowout in the Gulf of Mexico. And we just look at the proximate depths of all that. I think that when they intersect is something like 18,000 foot or 20,000, tens of thousands of feet. No matter how good your gyro is, it will have some inaccuracy. Even the way that you run it in the hole, the way it's sitting in the hole at any particular time. Now, after at a depth of 20,000 feet, we need to be accurate. Imagine, imagine, if I took off in a plane in Houston today and I was on the way to Austin, I'd probably cruise 15, 20,000 feet. Look down on the ground and imagine extending a drill stem and hitting something the size of a pie plate. You have no room. You have no room.

That is the first time anyone's ever given me that analogy. And that is very illuminating. Thank you. That's fantastic.

Just to put it in perspective, so how little the errors of the gyro, they're cumulative. So even if you have the best gyro in the world, if it's off more by the size of a pie plate, it's not going to work. You won't hit it.

So the way this works for me really easily is I think of a ship on the ocean. And so if I'm navigating a ship and I don't have a GPS. So I'm on a ship, I'm going 30 knots west for an hour. And I'm going to integrate that position, 30 knots, one hour, so 30 nautical miles. And then if I go north at 20 knots for an hour, I should be able to triangulate at that position. But there's a lot of things that add error there. The sea could be fighting me, pushing me back, slowing me down. My engine might not be perfectly efficient. I could spend some time turning. And so I might think that I could draw a triangle, calculate the hypotenuse, and then know where I am, but I'm going to have some error in that.

Now, if I could navigate in relation to a lighthouse, per se, on the shore, I could have a lot more accurate position to know exactly where I am. Because if I can see that lighthouse, I can use my instruments to range to that, if you will, and I can know what my position is a whole lot better. Now, the problem at the lighthouse is you got to be close to the shore. So what we do is on the open ocean is actually our GPS. And we have that constant referential error to a very advanced GPS system. So you have essentially I think the easiest analogy for magnetic ranging is you've got this, basically a downhole lighthouse. You're the ship, you're trying to navigate, and you've got this lighthouse underground that you can essentially see. But instead of an electromagnetic visible spectrum wave, it's a low frequency electromagnetic, it's really just a magnetic wave or a magnetic field that you're picking up with a magnetometer and that's what's seeing it. Right?

It's a really neat analogy. We might need to cut some of this out because I got to tell a bunch of stories now.

No, please. I was going to ask you to go to the stories and I think Shannon will allow us an extended podcast today. So yeah.

I've got some stories.

[crosstalk 00:33:14] the stories, and we'll go back a little.

So you're going to think I made this up, just like, "This guy's making it up." Okay. So no, the lighthouse analogy is great. That's exactly the way it works. You have these errors that are cumulative and you can drive them out. And I have to share this. So my great, great grandfather, he owned a schooner that we call it in Newfoundland, and he would sail and then come back. And he would have to do all this by dead reckoning because this was 1800s. So what I did is-

Are you sure there weren't rockets that launched GPS satellites in the 1800s?

No, not at that time. So because I'm such a nerd with this stuff, I acquired all the old instruments that they would use in the 1800s to do this, the old original charts, the British Admiralty charts, a ship's log, sextant, compass, chronometer. And then I would actually go in my little boat and pretend to see if I could put myself on the bearings that he did. Yeah. And I can do it plus or minus five miles or something like that, but there's error, there's error. And then once I do all that, I can simply turn and look at the lighthouse and head towards it. Or if you're in the fog, you can listen to the lighthouse. Okay.

I did not preplan my analogy based upon your history.

Back to your technical observations. This is interesting, right? The magnetic field that we use in magnetic ranging freely penetrates through the Earth. The magnetic permeability of the Earth, for most formations, we treat that as the same as traveling through space. Now, there is some resistance, I'll say, to magnetic field propagation through formation, but it is so small that it can be ignored, typically, it can be ignored. So the analogy is great. These magnetic fields propagate out freely through the formation in the same way that if you were in a boat, you could look and just visually see the lighthouse or et cetera. So yeah, it's a neat analogy. It's fun to talk about it.

Well, Clinton, we've gone an extended time today. I'd like to wrap up, but if there's any other stories you want to regale us with, because you're full of fantastic stories, feel free.

No. It can't be forced. It has to come about naturally. But for some reason, it seems like I always got a story for everything. Ah, that's the Newfoundlander that's coming out of me, I think.

I think that may be a sign of something you should talk to your doctor about, which is called age.

Very good.

I'm getting a little more full of them. I've definitely accidentally subjected people to the same story three or four times now. And so it's happening. It happens to everybody. Well, Clinton, this has been fantastic. I think it's going to be a fantastic listen for everyone that is in the industry. And so I really thank you for your time today. And maybe I'll ask you back so we can naturally get to some more of these stories.

Yeah. Hey, I really appreciate that, Ken. And I'll just leave in saying that it's a difficult time for a lot of people, for entrepreneurs, and all that stuff. And I'm telling you guys and gals, scoop up your family with one arm, scoop up your neighbors with the other, and proceed, move ahead. We can never give in. A lot of complexity and difficulty, but just work your way through it and it will acquiesce, like all things. So we all have to keep up the good fight.

Fantastic advice. So that's all the time we're going to allow ourselves for today, because we definitely went over the allotted amount. Clinton, Mr. Clinton Moss, CEO of Gunnar Energy Services. Fantastic. Thank you for joining today.

Thank you very much, Ken. I appreciate it.

Okay. Be sure to check out our podcast on iTunes, Spotify, and YouTube, and thanks for tuning into today's episode. We'll see you next time.